[00:00:00] Speaker A: Imagine a justice system built on rigorous evidence, not gut instincts or educated guesses about what works and what doesn't.
More people could access the civil justice they deserve.
The criminal justice system could be smaller, more effective and more humane.
The Access to Justice Lab here at Harvard Law School is producing that needed evidence. And this podcast is about the challenge of transforming law into an evidence based field.
I'm your host, Jim Greiner, and this is proof over precedent.
I'm with Melody Webb, the executive director and founder of Mothers Outreach Network. Melody, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, who you are and how it is that you came to found Mothers Outreach Network.
[00:00:48] Speaker B: Yes, hi, my name is Melody Webb and I came to this work as a family defense and economic justice lawyer just watching Black mothers in D.C. being investigated and primarily because they were poor, but not because they were really posing any danger to their children.
The work was just what I saw was just so compelling that I used it to build a mission around Mother's Outreach Network. And again, just research shows that black families are disproportionately pulled into child welfare and that the poverty, poverty is often confused with neglect and the basis for them getting identified. And Mothers Mother's Outreach Network really just grew out of the stories that I observed firsthand. And it is a place where legal advocacy, economic support and mother led organizing come together so that families can stay together and with economic security.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Terrific. And so just to clarify, you were a practicing attorney in the child welfare system for years, is that correct?
[00:01:52] Speaker B: That's absolutely correct. I was a practicing attorney who had an economic justice workers rights background, ground became a family law practitioner and was a court appointed attorney representing parents whose children were in foster care. And, and this is, this was the basis of my observations and the work that I'm doing now.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: And you decided to found Mothers Outreach Network or mon and and so you must have then had to get into the, the funding rat race. How did you sell the program and the idea to funders?
[00:02:25] Speaker B: Well, I really just told this simple story, had told it before.
Stories such as a black mother maybe missing visits and meetings because she can't afford childcare, missing appointments with a doctor because again, she can't afford childcare, a bus fare and when everyone is counted against her. And then however we've seen in the program we've been working on providing cash that you know, after you provide economic assistance, many of these issues disappear.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Terrific. And so we, we have with the Access to Justice Lab has been excited to create a partnership with MON in order to accomplish the phase two pre pilot. And, and this is what our, this podcast is about. But let's place it in context. What, what was phase one? If this was phase two, what was phase one?
[00:03:20] Speaker B: So phase one was our trial run. As an organization without researcher involvement, we really learned to conduct outreach to identify the moms. We learned ways to distribute cash using secure third party provided reloadable debit cards. It's not easy actually to get money to people.
And so that laid the groundwork so that operationally we were much more prepared. It was a much smaller program with, with five mothers. And, and, and that one actually ran for three, has run for three years. It's, we're in the last six months stretch of that program. But it was incredibly useful for, for phase, for phase two.
[00:04:06] Speaker A: And then phase two was the first of our partnerships together.
And so what was Mothers Outreach Network hoping to accomplish in pushing forward phase two?
[00:04:16] Speaker B: So phase two is our attempt to build evidence using the standards of evidence based research with a very reputable evaluation team at the very reputable esteemed Harvard Law School Access to Justice Lab. And we really want to put into practice like what we think is pretty evident and that is giving moms cash and demonstrating the impact it can have on their circumstances for purposes of informing policy. And we thought the best way to do that would be through working with a research institute.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: Super. And you said for the purpose of informing policy. Tell us about Mothers Outreach Network's overall policy goals. What is it that you hope to accomplish?
[00:05:05] Speaker B: So our overall policy goal is to have government policy reflect that, that we should provide cash to people, an income floor so that they can live with dignity and so that their children can be raised with security and have the best opportunity for advanced MAT systems are unfortunately punitive and, and they need to instead be, be more positive. I'll just give an example. So the agency that is responsible for taking people's children and then monitoring whether they comply with orders from the court is also the one that is charged with providing them with, with cash and parent.
And so we think that one example of policy change that is needed is that we don't sort of essentially give the agency that we call a policing agency responsibility for obtaining the trust and providing services and support to families. So that would be one goal to change who provides the support.
It could be that it's through an organization like ours, a community based organization that is trusted and that is viewed less as a policing organization and more as one that is really trying to lift up parents and their, and Their children.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Terrific. So what you've described. Well, actually, let me ask you to characterize. Would you characterize what you've described as making the existing system bigger, changing it fundamentally, or making it smaller, or some combination of those?
[00:06:43] Speaker B: So by, by system, the punitive system, we want to shrink those.
We want to make the system that is supportive of parents bigger. We believe that systems don't do enough to provide cash. There's a lot of bureaucratic hoops that parents have to go through to obtain needed cash assistance. And unfortunately that that leads to situations that in the current system, by, by, by definition makes them, because of, neglectful. And so we think that if we put more into the bucket of providing families with cash, we end up not having those punitive systems. However, the systems also have built in biases. And so to some extent, no matter how much you pour resources in, if there's bias, which we do see, there will still be families who don't get. Who get. Who sort of end up in the system anyway.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: Terrific. And so then the phase two pre pilot was designed to do the structural work to see about maybe a larger randomized field experiment. And we've got other recordings that explain more of the details. But basically there were around 20 moms, and we randomized some to a direct cash transfers group and the remainder to a compensated research group, with the direct cash transfers group receiving $500 a month for a certain period of time. And so tell us specifically with that as the study design, what would you, at the beginning of that study have defined as success? What is a good outcome coming from this phase two pre pilot?
[00:08:29] Speaker B: Well, first of all, I really imagine that it would be extremely beneficial to moms. I mean, some of them saw it as like. And we started saying that they won the lottery, they were just very excited to be selected. And so I sort of pictured that first small group of mothers hearing that the project would give them cash with no strings and researchers would study it. And one of them asked, like, you really trust me to decide what my family needs most? I mean, so my hope was for phase two, that mothers would walk away feeling supported. So often they do not. And they did, rather than watch. And I wanted to see that we could run the model ethically and practically, and that the early data would show cash and support helping families move out of crisis instead of deeper into the system. That was what I hoped to see. And what also happened with some of the moms I had hoped, we offered them our programming, which is advocacy related, and some of them took advantage of it and some of them are powerful spokespeople for the very policy principles that I just laid out. Systems that are supportive and reduction of those systems that are punitive.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: Terrific. Could you just tell us a little bit more about some of those additional services that Mothers Outreach Network provides? I mean, I imagine you were a practicing litigator, right? That's often a useful skill that people can employ. Tell us about those.
About those additional services.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. At times I've characterized this as being their sort of in house counsel. Unfortunately, the parents we see will have issues pre existing legal problems. There might be challenges with accessing benefits. They maybe have the potential to fall through the cracks because they failed to provide some kind of documentation of eligibility when a circumstance changes for them. Unfortunately, some of them have had experience with domestic violence. And so we are the people they will turn to, thus having offered services and having built trust with them. And so we either provide those that legal assistance, representation or advice, or we refer them to our trusted partners. And often we find they don't realize they have legal recourse. So in some cases it's providing them with information about their rights and them knowing that we're there to support them and help them navigate systems. So we've had cases of moms who entered the pilot program, took advantage of our legal services, and they're just very different people than they were when we met them. And that's exactly what we want to see happen. We also encourage the moms who seem to really be interested in not only sort of changing things for themselves, but other moms. We give them opportunities to speak in small meetings with lawmakers and then on the bigger stage, we've had moms who have taken part in American Bar association virtual webinars. We've had moms who've traveled to attend in person conferences and to speak at those conferences. So the transformation is incredible. And not all of the moms will end up being public speakers, but they all end up being the ones who agree to take part in our programming, in being a part of a really supportive community. And they build relationships with one another. So legal services, advocacy opportunities, and then chances to be just in fellowship with one another and have their children sometimes play together. And I was very excited at one point when I learned that the moms will talk to each other about nursing and other sort of issues that they're experiencing. So we're just really excited to be able to offer all of that to the moms. The other piece I'll point out is that often when they're involved with the sort of more punitive bureaucratic systems that arise when they have foster care cases. They're required to take parenting classes. They really are reluctant to take part in those. They feel that they're paternalistic. They feel that they're being judged. And what we see actually is that when the moms are in our programs, particularly when they're receiving cash assistance, they build trust with us and they will themselves surface those concerns, those emotions, needs that they may have that are unmet. They'll talk more openly about stress. And then we can sort of identify resources because we are. I'm not a social worker, but we've been working to identify partners to facilitate in the environment where there is not this fear of mandatory reporting, development of relationships and personal development.
So we see our program actually evolving to some extent where we are just constantly trying to meet the demands that they feel comfortable making of us to. To address their own personal needs. And I'll say one more thing. I was just very excited that in a recent gathering where I get to kind of listen in a little bit, the moms were telling this one mom, it's okay that you want to take time for yourself and have the kids go off with. With dad and have that personal time. So I mean, that's exactly what we're hoping for, that they will find community and they will bolster one another and then feel stronger and more available to their. Their children.
[00:13:59] Speaker A: Terrific. And so we conducted the phase 2 pre pilot when we. And again other other recordings of will describe in greater detail that we did interviews and we did and we did surveys and then we produced a report which is on the Access to Justice Lab's website and Mon's website, I presume, or will be and soon and with links will be available on. On the Proof Over Precedent website to those reports. But tell, tell me, what was your reaction to the report to the findings?
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Well, it, it was really just. It was touching. I was very emotional. I thought it did a great job of capturing the life experiences of mothers I've worked with for many years. And I really keep thinking about the participant who's there. For the first time in a long time, I could breathe between bills. I mean, the findings just really line up. They correspond with what a lot of studies confirm, that poverty and racism really drive who is reported and investigated and that economic support can ease that pressure. I know the focus was really on economic sort of related outcomes, but we just understand that this is disproportionately impacting mothers of color.
And so My vision really is that to make these experiences that these moms have had, receiving extra cash and support, just much more typical.
So. So it, it was just heartwarming to see it documented.
I'm not completely surprised, but I was pleasantly surprised by how well it captured what I've seen. It's now in the light. It's not you sort of like just something that I experienced and saw. And I'm just so pleased that the world actually can see these. These findings.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: So what was like an example or two of a key finding from the report that you thought was particularly either useful or informative?
[00:16:00] Speaker B: Well, so, I mean, just in particular, like the general thought idea that had these mothers had access to resources, that they would not have ended up being involved with the system. And what was also touching is that even when it was obvious that there were financial circumstances that led to their involvement, that they didn't see it in that way. I mean, it's interesting, I mean, and sad to me that there's just such a prevalence of a wrong narrative, a bad narrative about these moms that they maybe have unfortunately internalized some of them and they blame themselves even where we can see. And that was really one of the very touching, very poignant points elevated that, that it's clear that the mom, the moms themselves are victims of. But they don't see themselves as victims. They see themselves as responsible for their own financial circumstance, economic circumstances.
I believe that as a society, as a society that has like a real solidarity economy, that we are responsible. We are our brother's keeper, our sister's keeper. And so I'd like to us how to be more supportive of these moms and, and to make them feel that yes, we do care and we're there for them. And while yes, everyone wants to feel responsible for their personal circumstances, that they also can know that they have a neighbor or a friend or someone in an organization that is there to support them.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: Terrific. And so what is next for Mothers Outreach Network? I know we are going to be doing the phase three pre pilot. And so maybe you could just close with how that fits into Mothers Outreach Network's vision and both in the sense of phase three and then the broader agenda going forward.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: So the broader agenda is to bring about policy change such as that we've been seeing, we've succeeded in so far. We believe in the idea of pilots to policy, meaning that you have great findings such as those from the phase two report.
You take those to policymakers, you try to pull together convenings and spread the word to people at the local and state level, which is where I think policy can most effectively be made these days. And that policy will like, will itself kind of rise up and hopefully from the local and state level impact federal policy at some point in the future. And you have messengers who are people like the moms we've been working with. We are doing our best to galvanize and have them talk to local policymakers. We hope to find others through our networks like the American Bar association and other places who will carry the message forward. We plan to try to have like a cross interdisciplinary set of conversations. This work touches on both policy in the sort of quote unquote, child welfare space and also in the economic justice and specifically guaranteed income space.
So we want those conversations to flourish. And more narrowly, what we're going to be doing is working with you all on the Phase three pilot, which is so very important. It sounds like you all will go into detail about that on a separate episode. But it's important for us to, as we've done before, shine a light on what happens when a child is removed and how completely destitute the parents become after this. But have this just challenge of proving that they're economically fit, that they have of housing to actually reunify with their children. So we look forward to talking about this pilot, to recruiting parents for it and putting on information sessions. Ultimately, we hope we'll be able to put on a bigger webinar or in person event at the end of next year.
So lots of policy change. I think I've failed to say the child Tax credit locally has been something we've been advocating for. And we think that the child Tax credit is an example of the ways in which you can provide, or at least the one we built in D.C. unconditional cash to parents who are of the lowest income to help prevent involvement in the system is one of the ways to do it. A major way so though. And we'll continue to support measures like a baby bonus providing cash to parents in the first year of their children's lives. So that's one example of a policy initiative that we think would be particularly impactful in preventing involvement and interrupting involvement in the system, given that kids 0 to 3 in D.C. in particular are at highest risk of placement and foster care.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Terrific. Melody, anything else that you'd like to say before we close up shop?
[00:21:01] Speaker B: We're at a really difficult time in our country's history and I think it's important for all of us to think about the families that are most impacted by adverse policies, policies that reduce the public safety net. I think we, if we all pay attention and do everything that we can to stop this from happening, we're protecting children, we're protecting vulnerable families.
So I just encourage people to learn as much as they can about what's happening locally and at the state level and the issues we work on and to try to join in. We'd be happy for people to come to our website and sign up to our mailing
[email protected] and reach out to us individually to get more information and get involved locally or learn how you can get involved with these kinds of programs in your local community or your state.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: And of course, we'll conclude a link on the Proof Over Precedent website as well. So Melody, thank you. So Melody Webb, founder of Mother's Outreach Network, thank you so much for spending the time with us.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: Thank you. I appreciate it.
[00:22:10] Speaker A: Proof Over Precedent is a production of the Access to Justice Lab at Harvard Law School.
Views expressed in student podcasts are not necessarily those of the A J Lab.
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Here's a sneak preview of what we'll bring you next week.
[00:22:35] Speaker C: One major issue in these types of debt collection actions is an extraordinarily high failure to appear rate, which is estimated at 70 to 90%.
And the issue with that is when a defendant fails to appear in court, the court will enter a default judgment against the defendant, even if the claim is meritless.
So even if the credit card company is wrong, for example, if they didn't, if they claim you didn't pay your credit card debt and you actually did, just because you didn't appear in court, you lose.
And that can lead to all sorts of bad outcomes like wage garnishment, eviction, repossessing your auto, and lasting damage to your credit score.
So now you might ask, well, why didn't you just appear in court to begin with?
And the research shows it's not usually because you had some sort of nefarious objective or anything like that, but usually it's just simply because you didn't know that you had to appear in court.
